The Phantom of Heilbronn: How a DNA Blunder Unmasked a Non-Existent Killer

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The case featured in this episode has been researched using police records, court documents,

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: witness statements and the news. Listener discretion is advised. All parties mentioned

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: are innocent until proven guilty and all opinions are my own. Hey everyone, my name is Nikki Young

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is Serial Napper, the true crime podcast for naps. I'm back with another true crime story

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to lull you to sleep or perhaps to give you nightmares. Before I jump right into tonight's

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: episode, I just wanted to give you guys my biggest thank you especially to all of my listeners who

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: have kind of just stuck it out with me throughout my break. I did try to completely disconnect from

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: social media during my time away but I did see everyone's comments and your emails and your

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: messages and I'm just sort of working through them now so stay tuned and I'm sure I'm

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: gonna get back to you shortly. The break was desperately needed but I am feeling a little bit

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: better. I just moved to Germany about a week ago and I don't have my household furniture yet. I'm

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: living in basically hotels and airbnbs with two kids and a dog and it's been a challenge but

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want to wait any longer to get back to recording so here I am. There may be a few

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: bumps in the road as I try to get settled in here. Who knew how extremely complicated it would be

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to get Wi-Fi set up at my home here in Germany so it's all been a whirlwind. The sound might not

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: be the greatest here, I need still need to get my office set up but I'm gonna try to get settled

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: in and get my kids settled into another school and then environment. Either way I'm so happy

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to be back to doing this so let's go. We often think of DNA as being one of the most solid

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: foolproof piece of evidence in a crime investigation but our story tonight shows how that isn't at all

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: true. A female German serial killer dubbed the Phantom of Heilbronn or The Woman Without a Face,

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00]: she was believed to be responsible for a slew of crimes across the country including

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: six murders. The hunt to find this evil monster made international headlines as police

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: tried to identify the killer before she struck again. The Phantom of Heilbronn was said to have

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: committed various offenses including theft which left the police puzzled. It's not often that a

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: single criminal would have such a wide range of offenses so it was difficult to build a profile

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: around who their suspect might be. Still, the DNA showed that these crimes were all linked by

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: DNA evidence connected to one single individual or so they thought. You can only imagine the shock

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and horror when it was learned that the woman this DNA belonged to, she didn't even exist.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So dim the lights, put your phone down and listen to the story of the Phantom of Heilbronn,

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the female serial killer of Germany who never was. So let's jump right in.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: On April 25, 2007 in the city of Heilbronn in southwestern Germany, there would be a violent

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: crime committed in broad daylight, one that would rock the entire country and leave law enforcement

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: completely confused. A local police officer, 22-year-old Michelle Kieswetter was sitting in

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: the driver's seat of her patrol car next to her partner Martin Arnold while they enjoyed

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: their lunch break. Suddenly and without warning, two strangers entered the back seat of their cruiser

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and shot them both point blank from behind. The culprits then stole the officer's guns and handcuffs

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: before fleeing the scene. A passerby who saw the officers were bleeding out in their patrol

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: car called for an ambulance. Sadly, Michelle died from her injuries, however, her partner

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Arnold miraculously survived after spending weeks in a coma. Unfortunately, when he woke up in the

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: hospital, he had no memory of the shooting. The last thing that he could recall was leaving

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the restaurant with his partner after they were done eating their lunch and then getting it at

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: the passenger side of the cruiser. They then drove to a park and they parked their car underneath

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: a tree because it was really warm out that day. Beyond that, he couldn't remember a thing

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: including what either of the shooters looked like, meaning no identification could be made.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He was also completely paralyzed on one side of his body and he'd have to undergo many surgeries.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It would take around five months of rehabilitation for him to build up enough strength in his

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: body to return back to work. However, he would never return to patrolling. The trauma

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: of that day, it's made him never want to carry a gun again in his life. As a child, he had always

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: dreamed of becoming a police officer but on that day his dreams were shattered when he was shot and

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: left for dead while also losing his partner in the most violent of ways. It seemed to be

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: a random and senseless attack and no one knew who could be behind it. Arnold didn't have any

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: idea who may have been behind the gun or what their motive might be. Neither did the rest of the police

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: force. But there was hope. DNA evidence left behind that was found inside the cruiser in the back

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: seat and on the center console of the vehicle. To the shock of the investigators and basically

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: the country, the DNA had come from a woman which really didn't fit the profile of someone

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: who would typically commit such a heinous crime like this against a police officer. Still, it was

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: a lead and one that they had to follow. This crime was one that rocked all of Germany. People were

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: terrified that such a violent act could happen in this small city of Heilbronn and the pressure

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: was on to find the culprit. When the DNA profile was compared to other samples in their

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: database, investigators discovered that this was not the female shooter's first murder.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, her DNA had been found at the scene of many other crimes, ranging from murder to theft

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to drugs. Whoever this woman was, she had been around and up until this point,

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: she had been nicknamed the woman without a face by investigators because though she had

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: been involved in a whole slew of crimes, there hadn't been any witnesses, photos or video evidence

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that might show what she looked like. The quote woman without a face would now be forever known

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: as the phantom of Heilbronn. The first instance where her DNA was found went all the way back

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to a 1993 cold case, the murder of a 62 year old woman named Leselot Schleinger who loved

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: cats, children and baking. And I'm trying really hard to pronounce all of these German names and the

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: towns because I've been here a week so I will continue to try my best. The date was May 23rd

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in Eder Oberstein located around 100 miles west of Heilbronn. Leselot had just put her lemon

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: cake in the oven when something or someone prevented her from ever eating it. Shortly

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: thereafter, a neighbor had stopped by because the two had plans to enjoy tea together. However,

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: there was no answer at her door. The neighbor decided to check inside the home to make sure that

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: everything was okay and that's when the body was discovered. Leselot had been strangled with

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: a piece of wire that had been holding together a bouquet of flowers. The bouquet of flowers

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: was now just scattered all over the floor. Police interviewed the other neighbors but

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: no one had seen or heard anything strange that might be of help. There weren't any witnesses to this

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: murder. There was however DNA evidence which was found on the rim of a teacup inside the home.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This DNA profile was a match to Michelle's color that would happen many years later in her

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: police cruiser. So, whoever had shot the police officers had also strangled this elderly lady

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in her home more than a decade prior. That wasn't the only murder that this DNA sample was tied to.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: In 2001, an antique shop owner named Joseph Walsenbach was discovered murdered in his store.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: He had been strangled to death with a piece of garden twine and whoever had killed him had

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: turned the open sign over to say closed before they left which is kind of creepy. A small

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: amount of cash had been taken from him around $230 which is a shocking number considering how brutal

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: his murder had been. A DNA sample was found on his body, on a few of the items in his shop

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and on the door handle that would match the phantom of Heilbronn. These two murders made sense

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that they could have been committed by the same killer because they were both strangulations

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: where the killer used a weapon of opportunity something that they had just found lying around

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the victim's home or shop. However, the next instance where the phantom's DNA had been found

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: it was quite a switch up. In 2001, a child in Germany had accidentally stepped on a heroin

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: needle and the parents wanted the police to pursue charges against whoever had left it lying

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: around. When investigators swabbed this heroin needle they found the phantom's DNA on it.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So not only was this woman a killer but she was also a drug addict. Interesting. DNA samples were

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: taken from approximately 3,000 women in the area who had been described as homeless drug users who

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: at one point committed a serious crime but there were no matches to the phantom. In 2003

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: on New Year's Day there was a break-in at a business office near Frankfurt and a coffee

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: tin full of change had been stolen. A scraping of skin had been found near where the coffee tin had

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: been taken and when it was swabbed the DNA came back as a match to the phantom. This break-in

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: was described as quote a professional job because there weren't any fingerprints left behind.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So now the phantom of Heilbronn was believed to be a brutal killer, a heroin addict

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and a professional robber, a coffee tin robber. In total her DNA would be found at the scene of

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: approximately 30 break-ins. A prosecutor by the name of Gunter Horn would refute the claims that

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the phantom had to be some kind of professional criminal genius who always stayed one step ahead

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: of the police instead saying quote she leaves no fingerprints because she wears gloves. That

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: is pretty standard. There are no witnesses presumably because she steals in, she strikes and she leaves.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Now around this time all of the European countries began sharing access to their DNA databases

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's when it was learned that not only had the phantom been a prolific criminal in Germany

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but they were committing crimes in other European countries like Austria and France.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Also this DNA sample was connected to other various petty crimes. We're talking break-in

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: enters, car thefts, robberies. This woman's DNA was found at a crime scene where in 2001

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a cookie trailer had been broken into and all of the cookies had been eaten. The phantom

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: was now allegedly a cookie thief. Her DNA had also been found on a toy pistol that had been

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: used to rob a gem store in France. None of it seemed to add up and yet the DNA

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it said that all of these crimes were connected to this one woman. In 2005 in Werns, Germany

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: a Roma man had shot his brother and investigators found the phantom's DNA on one of the bullets.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So did the phantom have accomplices in these crimes? Did she help this man to

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: shoot his own brother? If she did, certainly none of these accomplices were turning on her

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: even after they were arrested and behind bars. Nobody admitted to knowing who she was or working

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: with her. It's time for a quick break and a word from tonight's sponsors. Hang on I'll be back

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: before you know it. Now back to our story. In 2006 in Saarbrücken, Germany there was an

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: attempt to break in. Someone happened to see the burglary in progress and they called the police so

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: finally there was an eyewitness. The police found the phantom's DNA at the scene but surprisingly

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the eyewitness said that the person they saw breaking in was actually a man who had facial

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: hair. This didn't match the DNA profile of a woman which led the police to believe

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that the phantom could have actually been a transgendered man. Biologically a woman,

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: their DNA would match up as a woman but presenting as a man a transgendered man physically.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Then in January of 2008 there was a triple homicide in Heppenheim, Germany where the

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: bodies of three used car dealers were found in the Rhine River. There were two foreigners who

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: were arrested in connection to the murders and initially it was believed that the victims

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: had been killed for money. One of the suspects who was arrested was a man from Iraq and when they

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: searched his vehicle they found the phantom's DNA again. Now they believe that she could have either

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: been an accomplice in this triple homicide or at the very least the suspect was an associate

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: of hers, he must have known her. They questioned the suspect about how he knew the phantom,

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: what he knew about her and her involvement in the murders but he refused to say anything so was he

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: protecting her? The hunt for the phantom of Heilbronn felt like a wild goose chase. Authorities offered

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a reward of $400,000 for any information that would lead to her identification and arrest

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but no one stepped forward with anything that could be helpful. Investigators were

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: completely baffled and they asked for assistance from profilers all across Europe to help nail down

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: who this woman could be. What kind of person had such an extensive rap sheet that included crime

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: scenes all across Europe? This person had no clear MO or patterns and an extensive list

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: of possible associates from all backgrounds and again none of these associates would even

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: admit her existence even when offered immunity. Investigators went as far as to consult psychics

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to see if maybe they could provide any sort of direction about where to look any information

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: at all but no such luck. Whoever the phantom of Heilbronn was she seemed to be the most

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: elusive criminal of all time. She would be implicated in 40 crimes six of which were

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: murders while the police spent eight years, about 2 million euro and over 16,000 man hours searching

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: for this terrifying woman but every time the police came up empty-handed. Then in March of 2009

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the tide turned when investigators attempted to identify a burned corpse that they had found

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: back in 2002. They believed that this man may have been an asylum seeker and they were able

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to lift his fingerprints from his asylum application but they couldn't find a match in their system

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so they tested the prints for DNA and they were shocked to find that they contained the phantom's

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: DNA. The phantom was a female but this asylum seeker was a male so how was this possible?

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They repeated the test with a different cotton swab but this time there was no phantom DNA

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: found. So how the heck is that possible? Plot twist it's not and this is when a light bulb

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: went off and investigators thought that perhaps maybe just maybe it was possible the cotton

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: swabs that had been used to collect the DNA sample was contaminated. That's right the cotton

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: swab used for collection already had the phantom of Heilbronn's DNA on it and this went much

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: further than this single case. While the swabs were sterile meaning that they had all bacteria,

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: fungi and viruses removed they hadn't been certified to collect human DNA so there was a

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: possibility that the swabs already had DNA on them from things like skin cells or sweat from

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: when they were being produced and manufactured. These cotton swabs they had been used by many

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: police departments all across Europe particularly in Germany and when a thorough examination of the

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: swabs was done it was found that many of the swabs were in fact contaminated and they had

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: all come from the same factory a factory that employed mostly Eastern European women.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: The police pointed the finger at the cotton swab factories blaming them for not providing

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: them with perfectly clean swabs I mean what did you think they were going to use these

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: swabs for the factories pointed their finger right back saying that the swabs were fine for

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: collecting other types of evidence like medical evidence and they were in fact sterile but they

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: had never been certified for collecting human DNA as you can imagine the German police forces

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: using these swabs and inadvertently mishandling their cases they all had egg on their faces

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it was an extremely embarrassing PR nightmare. The phantom of Heilbronn's DNA profile

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it was not legitimate it wasn't real it was a combination of the DNA of the women who had

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: worked to produce the cotton swabs in the factory meaning the phantom was not this elusive female

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: serial killer who also liked to steal cookies and shoot heroin in her spare time she simply

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: did not exist and the DNA it was already on the cotton swabs when they were used to collect

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: legitimate DNA at all of these crime scenes there had been widespread contamination across

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: all of these different crime scenes meaning all of these cases had been mishandled there were not

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: only thieves and robbers that had been left to continue their crime sprees because investigators

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: were looking for a female suspect but there were also killers who had so far gotten away

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: with their crimes because they didn't fit the DNA profile and funny enough if you can call it that

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: over the years investigators wondered why there were so many of these phantom crimes happening

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in close proximity to each other especially in germany but none in Bavaria located in the

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: southeast of germany so did the phantom simply never visit Bavaria well as it turns out

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the local police there purchased their cotton swabs from a different factory so there wasn't any

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: cross-contamination or phantom DNA on any of their swabs while this cross-contamination obviously

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: wasted a ton of money through fruitless investigations and man hours the worst part

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: about it all is that there were literally dozens of criminals and murderers out there who were

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: able to walk free for years while the police tried to figure out the identity of the phantom of

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Heilbronn who didn't even exist all of those investigations were back at square one and

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: they had to be completely reexamined with a fresh set of eyes for example what about the brutal

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: murder of 22 year old police officer Michelle Kaiser Wetter the case that brought with it

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: the nickname the phantom of Heilbronn in November 2011 two men who belonged to the German right wing

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: terror group nsu they killed themselves after a botched bank robbery and amongst their belongings

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: police found Michelle's handgun it's now believed that it was members of this terrorist group who

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: hopped in the back of her cruiser that day and shot her and her partner in the back it's believed

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that these two men had killed as many as 10 people over the course of the years targeting

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: immigrants specifically most of them being of Turkish descent Michelle was the only one of

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: their victims who was a female and not an immigrant if her handgun had not been found

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: with these two terrorists who knows how long it would have taken to solve her murder police

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: spent most of those years chasing a ghost known as the phantom of Heilbronn all because the

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: swabs that they had used to collect evidence from the crews of that day already contain the DNA

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: from females who had worked at the factory it was truly lucky that Michelle's murder could be

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: solved after years of the investigation team focusing on a suspect that simply did not exist

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but sadly the same cannot be said for some of the other cases where the phantom was implicated

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: most of which have not been solved and may never be solved if there was legitimate DNA

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: evidence left behind at these crime scenes they're obviously no longer valid or usable because of the

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: cross-contamination and it's not like we can turn back the clock and pull new evidence from

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: these scenes if there is any positive found in this case of gross negligence it's that everyone

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: needs to be reminded that DNA evidence is not perfect oftentimes as soon as we hear that there

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: has been DNA found in a case that connects someone to the crime we might kind of think that like

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an open and shut case but that's just not true cross-contamination does happen and I've

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: covered several cases myself where that has been used as a defense and there are people sitting

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: behind jail right now who claim that they've been convicted due to cross-contamination

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a lot easier than one might think DNA evidence should be used to guide the police on

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: the direction of their investigation but it's just another tool it should never be the only

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: key to identifying the suspect again there are people sitting behind bars today convicted

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of crimes that they didn't do because of cross-contamination so it's something to be aware of

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: since the phantom of Heilbrom there's a new standard for the manufacturing of forensic

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: consumables like cotton swabs and other tools that are used to collect evidence it's called ISO

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: 18385 so now there are very specific requirements that need to be met by these manufacturing

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: companies that make products for DNA testing to ensure that there isn't any cross-contamination

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: happening because previously this wasn't even really a thought police would worry about

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: cross-contamination on the scene what they were doing you know things like wearing gloves so that

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they didn't leave their own fingerprints behind but nobody really imagined that the collection

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: products they're using might not be manufactured with all of those same considerations in mind

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: DNA evidence is obviously still one of the most crucial components of an investigation

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and it holds a lot of weight in a court case but it's not foolproof don't forget

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that's it for me tonight if you want to reach out you can find me on facebook at Serial Napper

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you can find my audio on apple or spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I post all of my episodes in video format over on youtube so go check it out and if you're

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: watching on youtube I'd love if you can give me a thumbs up and subscribe I'm over on x formerly

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: known as twitter at serial underscore napper and I post things on tiktok Serial Napper Nick

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's all one word until next time sweet dreams stay kind especially in the comments bye