Kenneth Law: The Poison Peddler

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: In this episode of Serial Napper, I discuss the sensitive topic of suicide.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to emphasize that the content may be triggering for some listeners.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide,

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I strongly encourage you to seek help immediately.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: National helplines such as the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or the Crisis Text Line usable by texting hello to 741-741 are available 24-7.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, you are not alone and there is support available.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Listener discretion is advised. Hey everyone, my name is Nikki Young and this is Serial Napper,

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: an international true crime podcast. I'm back with another true crime story to lull you to

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: sleep or perhaps to give you nightmares. You can find just about anything that you need online.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the wonderful and terrifying things about the internet.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you need, you can likely procure it. But what if what you were looking for was help?

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone to talk to during your darkest moments? Could you find it online?

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, resources like the ones that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: are available, but in the darker corners of the internet you might find more than you bargained for.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: There are disturbed and evil individuals online and waiting ready to take advantage

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: of society's most vulnerable people, those suffering through mental illness.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Offering them a solution that at the time they think they might need,

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's all for their own sick and twisted enjoyment.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Tonight I'm talking about one of those evil monsters, a 57 year old Canadian man named Kenneth Law.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He now stands accused and charged with 14 counts of second degree murder

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: for his plot to sell poison through the mail to individuals contemplating taking their own

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: life. He may be linked to as many as over 100 deaths through his suicide by mail scheme.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: If he's found guilty, he will go down as one of the worst mass murderers in Canadian history,

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but nothing will take away the agonizing pain he has inflicted on the hundreds of family

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: members of his victims. So let's jump right in. Now more than ever with the holidays over

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and the New Year on the horizon, it's important for us to talk about suicide and mental health,

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because speaking about it makes it less taboo. And if it's less taboo, then more people can

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: feel comfortable talking about how they're actually feeling. According to the World Health

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Organization, more than 700,000 people worldwide die due to suicide every year. That's around

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: 2,000 people every day. The numbers for those who have attempted suicide but didn't succeed

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: are far greater. Sadly, many of those who did die by suicide did so impulsively,

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: while they were going through something really difficult in their life like a death,

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a loss of a job, a breakdown of a marriage. Most didn't really want to die,

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: they just wanted the pain to stop. But once they've taken the action to end their life,

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it might be too late to go back and change their mind. They're trapped with the permanent

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: consequences of their choices, which is why prevention is key. Knowing the warning signs,

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: what to look for, how to help someone in a crisis, and finding the gaps where support

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is lacking all are important to saving lives. But not everyone feels that way.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Just like there are people who feel as if there is no other option than to take their own life,

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: there are also people who support their decision to do so. Encourage it even.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Since the beginning of the internet, there have been communities solely dedicated to assisting

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: people around the world with ending their lives. For obvious reasons, I'm not going to name any of

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: them here, but take my word for it, they exist if you go looking for them.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Now these forums, these websites, they throw up certain conditions that you have to agree to,

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: like confirming that you are over 18 years old and rules like agreeing that you will

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: not encourage other users to take their life or promote specific suicide methods.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: These terms are more so for the protection of the creators of these sites,

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: not to actually have a safe space for its users. Because if you look through the posts on these

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: forums, you'll see that it's really easy to get around these rules simply by using

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: acronyms and nicknames to write what you want to say. One of the more popular versions

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: of these forums boasts more than 40,000 members from all around the world who self-identify as

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are struggling with suicidal ideations. It contains more than 2 million messages posted

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: by people who are looking for advice, support, someone to talk to. Amongst these messages,

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: there are also multiple posts about a suicide kit available by mail.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The BBC did an investigation on this forum earlier this year and some of the things that they uncovered

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: are shocking. One photo posted by a child showed a package that had been delivered to their door,

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: allegedly containing a suicide kit. Poison that they had purchased from an online supplier

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that they plan to use to take their own life. The caption of this post read, quote,

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It arrived while I was at school. I called my mom and told her not to open it. I'm going to use it

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: today. The kit had been shipped from the post office located at a shopper's drug mart in Mississauga,

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Ontario, far, far away, out of sight, out of mind. The sender? A 57 year old man named Kenneth

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Law, who lived alone in a split level townhouse. Recently he had worked as a cook in the kitchen

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Fairmont Royal York, a prestigious hotel known worldwide for its history and

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: luxurious stays. But he wasn't very good at it. The running joke was he couldn't even make tomato

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: sauce. And according to one former co-worker, it was a well known fact that the hotel,

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: they wanted to let him go once his three month probation period was over. Unfortunately,

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: he would put up a fuss, citing ageism as a reason that the hotel was discriminating against him,

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: as if he wasn't terrible at his job. Ultimately they would keep him on staff,

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but they would try to shuffle him around to different jobs that didn't have him messing

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: up the food for really important guests. It was all sort of working out until 2020, when covid struck

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and the world shut down, including the kitchen at the Royal York. Kenneth was now out of a job,

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and he desperately needed money. He was drowning in more than $134,000 in debt,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was forced to declare bankruptcy. He needed a way to bring in more money,

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and he found it when he encountered these online suicide forums.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: He saw a business opportunity. The users who were posting on these forums, they were looking for

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: quick and painless ways to take their own lives. And Kenneth, he knew of a method that was both

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: attainable and technically legal, a substance called sodium nitrate, which is a type of salt that is

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: often used to preserve deli meats. Think about cured foods, they use sodium nitrate, a substance which

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: is commonly found in restaurants and it's widely available to purchase. Perhaps that is where he

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: got the idea during his time working in the hotel kitchen, we don't know. When a person takes

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: sodium nitrate in large doses, it can be lethal. For many years, euthanasia advocates have pointed to

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: using sodium nitrate as a way to painlessly die. When it's taken in lethal quantities,

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it basically suffocates the person from the inside out by preventing red blood cells from

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: delivering oxygen to the rest of the body. Whether or not taking sodium nitrate is actually

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a painless way to die is highly debatable because many of those who have attempted it

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: have succeeded in their goal. But those who have survived reported experiencing severe stomach pains,

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: nausea and heart palpitations. During the lockdown when people were particularly suffering with

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: their mental health, Kenneth Law decided to set up several online storefronts

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to sell these suicide kits containing sodium nitrate which in Canada is fairly easily attainable.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: On one of his shops called I'm Time Cuisine, he sold 50g packets of the powder for $59 each,

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a great markup when you can get it from wholesalers for about $15 a kilo. While the website didn't

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: explicitly say that these kits were to be used for suicide because that would be illegal,

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: these kits were marketed on the forums specifically for that use. When the kits shipped to the customer,

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: they included no specific instructions on how to use it, but the instructions could easily be found

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: on the forums, the same forums that they used to purchase the kit. Alongside these salt kits,

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Kenneth sold products like hot sauce in an attempt to hide the true intentions of his shop.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: On other versions of his site, Kenneth went as far as to offer personal consultations on

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: how to use the products for about $150. For years he would sell multiple kits a day

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to customers from all around the world. He'd package them up from his living room in Mississauga

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and ship them out from his local shopper's drug mart. Meanwhile, coroners from Canada,

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: the UK and several other countries were noticing an uptick in strange sudden deaths that

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: appeared to be linked to an overdose of sodium nitrate. And they weren't the only ones who were

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: taking notice. The family members of Kenneth Law's customers began to piece together what was

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: happening and how their loved ones were dying. One such family was the Ramirez family who lost

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: their transgender daughter Noelle to suicide after she had ordered one of Kenneth's kits online.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Noelle had struggled for years with her autism, OCD, gender identity, depression and suicidal

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: thoughts. She had tried unsuccessfully to take her life once before, and her family really rallied

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: around her with love and support. Sadly, at that same time, Noelle was being encouraged to move

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: forward with taking her life by strangers on one of these forums, and her family were basically

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: powerless to stop it, completely unaware of what was happening online. In March 2023,

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Noelle said goodbye to her family and then she went to her room and posted a goodbye thread on one

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of these suicide forums. She talked about how she had ordered the kit online and was preparing

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to take it that night. The response that she received was overwhelmingly supportive of her

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: decision to take her own life without giving it any more thought. And so she did. She consumed the

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: salt kit and then she climbed out of her bedroom window to stumble a few blocks away to a park.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: She didn't want her parents to find her in that condition, but she did call the police

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to let them know where they could locate her body. Then Noelle went unconscious

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and she never woke up again. Noelle is just one of hundreds of people who used one of

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Kenneth Law's kits to take their own life. There would be many more all across countries

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: like Canada, the US, the UK, Italy, and New Zealand, just to name a few. Families began calling their

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: local police with information that they discovered after their loved ones' deaths.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Kenneth Law appeared to be hiding in plain sight. His websites were easily accessible by anyone,

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of them even included his full contact details. The product that he was selling online

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: was legal. Without proof that he was encouraging people to use the product to kill themselves,

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: there wasn't much that could be done by the authorities.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the family of one of Kenneth's customers became truly fed up with a lack of progress,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and they decided to take things into their own hands.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: 22-year-old Tom Parfitt purchased and used the suicide salt kit in October of 2021,

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: successfully taking his own life in a London hotel room. Tom's father, David,

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: discovered the connection between his son's death and the kits that were available online.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He tried putting pressure on his local government to get an investigation going into what was

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: happening, but when that didn't pan out, he went straight to the media for help. Really smart.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: David worked with the editor of The Times in London, James Beale. Together, they sort of set up

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: their own sting operation. Beale called Kenneth on the phone pretending to be a customer who was

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: interested in purchasing one of his kits. It didn't take much for Kenneth to completely spill the beans

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: about the true intention of his online business. Without prompting, Kenneth detailed how to use

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: the kit for suicide and even encouraged Beale to go through with the purchase.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: This was proof that what Kenneth Law was doing was in fact illegal. He was encouraging people to

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: take their own lives and providing advice on the best way to do it with his kits.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: James Beale from The Times handed over his evidence to the local police organization

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: where Kenneth Law lived, the Peel Regional Police in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They already had an active investigation going into Kenneth's activities after they had received

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: multiple complaints by family members who had lost their loved ones to suicides linked to these

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: salt kits. There had been grieving families from all around the world who had come forward with

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: their own stories linking back to Kenneth Law's website. One woman from Detroit reported that

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: her 17-year-old son had burst into her room screaming,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to live after consuming the suicide salt kit. Sadly, it was too late to save him.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But all of these stories helped to finally shut Kenneth Law down

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: three years after he began his online suicide kit business.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: On May 2nd, 2023, he was arrested at his home, standing accused of sending at least

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: 1200 packages to people in more than 40 countries. Initially, he was charged with 14 counts of

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: counseling or aiding suicide. But as the investigation progressed and more police

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: agencies from across the world became involved, it became apparent that this was

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: much more than simply aiding suicide. Recently, those charges were upgraded to 14 counts

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: of second degree murder, all related to the deaths of Canadian individuals ranging in age

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: from 16 to 36 years old. Police have said that there is more than one victim under the age of

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: 18 years old. These charges do not include all of Kenneth Law's alleged international victims.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: In Britain, it's believed that at least 272 people purchased products from Kenneth Law's

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: various websites and at least 88 of them died. That number is expected to grow as the investigation

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: continues. Kenneth Law has so far disputed these charges. His story is that he was doing something

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: good, taking away people's pain. In an interview with the media, he pointed to his upbringing

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: as the reason for building these online businesses. He said that when he was younger,

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: his mother had a stroke and was basically bedridden. She couldn't speak or eat and she had a very low

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: quality of life. He claimed his religious father refused to take her off of life support,

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: despite the fact that she was not likely to ever get any better.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: According to Kenneth, he launched the websites because he wanted to help people end their own

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: suffering. For those not living in Canada or who aren't aware, medically assisted dying

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is available in Canada through the made law. But of course, if you are someone who is looking

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to use this kind of service, there are hoops that you must first jump through to ensure

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that you are mentally capable of making such a big decision and that you're completely sure of it.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone who is looking to use medical assistance to die has to meet certain requirements,

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so the applicant has to be over 18 years old, have a grievous and irremediable medical condition,

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: undergo two independent evaluations, and be able to give informed consent. These steps are

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: important to ensuring that the person really wants to go through with it and that it isn't an

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: impulsive decision, also making sure that they fully understand what they're consenting to

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and the ramifications of that decision. One cannot simply take it upon themselves to offer

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: this kind of service, no matter what kind of holier-than-thou motive that they claim to have

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: behind it. Still, according to Kenneth's lawyer, he plans to plead not guilty to the charges,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: saying that the charges are based on a quote, novel interpretation of the law. To my knowledge,

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: in Canada there has never been a prosecution for counseling or aiding suicide where the

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: conduct in question is selling an otherwise legal product on the open market. This is

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: If he is found guilty of the second degree murder charges, he faces spending life in prison,

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: which in Canada is 25 years before they are eligible for parole. Once he faces his charges

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in Canada, it's quite possible that he may be extradited to other jurisdictions to face even

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: more murder charges. It's believed his poison kits have killed hundreds of people worldwide.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: For now, we wait until the end of January for his case to return to the courts.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Many people think that more needs to be done to stop these kinds of businesses from flourishing.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: There not only needs to be a crackdown on websites that sell these homemade suicide kits,

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but the forums themselves need to be taken down. These are not resources for people who are suffering

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: from mental illness and needing someone to speak with. They are often times filled with people

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: who want nothing more than to see other people suffer and die. The problem is, in many countries,

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like Canada, there is a serious lack of resources dedicated to mental health. In my experience,

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: when someone finally has the strength to reach out, it can be difficult to get them the

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: appropriate kind of help. Often we're prescribed antidepressants and full disclaimer here,

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a purpose for antidepressants. I am a firm believer that if your doctor prescribes

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: them to you, you should take them. But then we're just sort of sent on our way with very

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: little follow-up care. So we self soothe. Like we do when we need to help ourselves with

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: other things, we turn to the internet for advice. It's not the first time that we've seen something

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: like this happen in Canada. It reminds me of a local story from 2008 that I remember well because

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a huge search effort in my city. Nadia Kajooji was an 18 year old university student

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: who had been struggling with really difficult life events. She had a big breakup happen and then

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: she had a recent miscarriage. She was really depressed and suicidal. She would throw herself

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: into the river as part of a suicide pact that she made with someone online, someone that she believed

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to be a nurse from Minneapolis named Cammie D. She thought this person was a friend. But Cammie

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: D was actually a married father of two. He had no intention of taking his own life.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: He simply thrived on the adrenaline of encouraging someone else to do it. He would serve only 178

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: days in jail for his role in Nadia's death as well as his role in assisting the suicide of another

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: 32 year old from Britain. And it's wild to me that we give criminals like this such a light

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: sentence when they were so instrumental to the events that led to these people's deaths.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They could have been a light at the end of the tunnel, but instead they were a monster lurking

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: in the dark. These individuals need to be named and shamed and have it made clear that they can

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: no longer hide behind a screen name and a keyboard. There are real consequences for their

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: actions just as real as the consequences that the families of their victims must live with

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: forever. Like the mother of 19 year old Ashton Proser who was just a month away from his 20th

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: birthday when he bought a suicide kit from Kenneth Law and ended his own life. His mother would say,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I have never experienced my heartbreak the way it has this year. There was definitely anger

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and an onset of who's at fault for this but I want to sit in a place of forgiveness not retribution.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: She said that her son began struggling in high school when he was a teenager. It got a lot

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: worse post COVID when all of his university classes moved online and he fell behind. The day

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that he took his own life, he called his mother on the phone and chatted with her about her

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: dogs and an upcoming trip that she was going to be taking. Then they said that they loved each other

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and hung up. A little over an hour later, she would get the phone call that her son had killed

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: himself. She would say quote he knew he was calling to say goodbye. I'm grateful for that

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: phone call. He didn't do that for anybody else but for me. It was like all of this potential

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: is just gone. We're not doing enough. There isn't support for everyone who's struggling in mental

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: health. That's it for me tonight. If you want to reach out, you can find me on Facebook at

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Serial Napper. I also have a Serial Napper true crime discussion group. It's called Serial Society

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll have a link in my show notes. I'd love to chat with you about all of the cases

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that I cover and everything else true crime. You can find my audio on Apple or Spotify or wherever

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you listen to podcasts. I post all of my episodes in video format over on YouTube so go check it out

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and if you're watching on YouTube, I would love if you could give me a thumbs up and subscribe.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also over on X formerly known as Twitter at Serial underscore Napper and I'm on TikTok,

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Serial Napper Nick and that's all one word. Until next time, sweet dreams, stay kind,

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: especially in the comments. Bye.